KWB Omnibus

[ProfessorHenn]

@Pronoun

once the Dean becomes the Chair

The Dean would preside over the election of the Chair, not become the Chair automatically.
Kringle is talking about managing the vote for Chair, not all Assembly votes.

@Pronoun

the Chair in some cases of vacancy to be a responsibility that should have some form of accountability

It does, through Article 9 of the Charter (recalls) and regular elections.

[BlockBuster2K43]

I believe he would be, according to the legislative activity spreadsheet, Kringle has been serving continuously since around about February 2013.

[Pronoun]

@ProfessorHenn

The Dean would preside over the election of the Chair, not become the Chair automatically.

I was referring to this (emphasis mine):

@KrisKringle

The Dean of the Assembly presides over all periods of the election for the Chair and proclaims the result of the election, and becomes the Chair for the remainder of the term in cases of vacancy wherein less than half the term remains.

Personally, I think it goes a bit beyond just a ceremonial role if we’re choosing a successor to the Chair. We all know who the Dean of the Assembly is probably going to be, and there’s little anyone can do about it. So if/when the position of Chair becomes vacant with less than half the term remaining… I know that the Dean won’t be serving as Chair for more than three months, and can be recalled as Chair, but it’s basically reducing the Assembly to a yes/no choice. (Also, it’s again very possible I’m just missing something, but who actually becomes the Chair if the Dean is recalled as Chair? Is it just the Dean again, because technically the position of Chair becomes vacant with less than half the term left?)

The Assembly already did away with Chair terms altogether and I honestly have no problems with that. Every February, May, August, and November, the Assembly starts off a new session, and whoever the current Chair is can give their address. If the Chair resigns, loses eligibility, is recalled, etc. then we can hold elections for a new Chair.

[ProfessorHenn]

@Pronoun

I was referring to this (emphasis mine):

Roger, that was a misunderstanding on my end.

@Pronoun

If the Chair resigns, loses eligibility, is recalled, etc. then we can hold elections for a new Chair.

I agree. How about something like this:

@KrisKringle

(2) Elections for the Chair begin on the first of every February and August, or no more than seven days after a vacancy wherein no more than one month of less than half the term remains, and consist of a period of three days where legislators may declare their candidacies and a period of three days where legislators may cast their votes under approval vote. Should a vacancy occur within one month of the term’s conclusion, the next regularly scheduled election will be moved up.

I’m editing this so that if a vacancy of more than one month occurs, we just have an election to cover the rest of the term, but if it’s less than, we can just move up the next one to cover a bit of a longer term.

[Pronoun]

I’m fine with that. I think it could also work without fixed term lengths for the Chair, but if there’s a general preference otherwise, that’s not a dealbreaker for me.

[ProfessorHenn]

@KrisKringle

(2) Officials may be recalled by the Assembly on grounds of dereliction of duty, abuse of power, or violations of the law, but the effect of recall [add]is extends only to removal from office and disqualification from holding future office.

I’m assuming you meant to drop the “[add]is” from this.

@KrisKringle

(1) Elections consist of a period of four days where voters may declare their candidacies and a period of three days where voters may cast their votes.

What about including “per round of voting” following “a period of three days”, since it doesn’t define the length of the rounds in the section concerning the Delegate election.

@KrisKringle

(3) Proposals must, before they are brought to a vote, be debated for no less than three days, provided that the Chair may waive this requirement in cases urgency is required, and receive a motion and a second from separate legislators.

Recommend changing to “requirement in cases where urgency is required”.

@KrisKringle

Espionage - attempting to unlawfully obtain, or unlawfully distributing, information in violation of the Accountability Act.

There’s no Accountability Act attached, unless this is deliberate.

---

Appreciate your writing this.

[Roavin]

@KrisKringle

I happen to agree, and I have adjusted the draft accordingly.

Wonderful, thank you!

@KrisKringle

That is…different from how things have been done in the past. I think it’s an interesting idea and perhaps that’s something we could discuss?

Sure! Here’s my reasoning: At any one time, the biggest imminent threat to the region is an autocoup by the Delegate, and it’s the security institution (CRS, CSS, SecC, whatever) that is responsible for bolstering defenses and monitoring the situation. Having the Delegate be part of it would be counter-productive, of course, as they would contribute to a better situation for their autocoup, if so inclined. Now, suspending the Delegate from the security institution if they are already on the security institution isn’t a fail-safe, as they’ll already be aware of extant means and methods, but they wouldn’t be able to influence the monitoring or observe what is being detected already.

That all being said, since our Delegate is non-political, we’re incredibly unlikely to elect one that would autocoup, so this isn’t important whatsoever.

@KrisKringle

This was meant to say that recalls could not extend beyond removal and disqualification, but in all honesty I didn’t give it much thought in terms of how that would happen in a real scenario. Is this something that would be reasonable to include, or would we prefer to keep recalls focused only on removal from office?

Oh, surely focus on just removal from office, for a number of reasons, not the least of which that it would be unconstitutional under extant law as well as KWB (2.1.e).

@KrisKringle

What if it was adjusted to this?

Beautiful!

@KrisKringle

I’m open to suggestions. I’m not married to the name.

I mean … I like CRS. I know you don’t. Maybe Regional Guard?

@KrisKringle

Do you have any concerns or issues in particular about this?

Will address this in a separate post.

@Pronoun

@KrisKringle

The Prime Minister is the commander-in-chief of the Special Forces of the South Pacific and exercises civilian command and control over it.

Meh… it seems the current vote suggests a general sentiment otherwise, but it’s been clear for a while now that you don’t share that sentiment

I think in the past I would be more critical in this, but given that we’re a solidly Defender GCR and I doubt a PM would dare to do something like not let the SPSF deploy at will in Libcord between ordered missions. Though if the latter were to happen, I’ll be the first to yell for a recall + law change

@BlockBuster2K43

I believe that Kringle would in fact be the first Dean, after all, they are the longest continuously serving legislator.

Turns out that I still have access to the legislator roster, and the top 6 from eldest descending are:

• Kringle
• Tsunamy
• Farengeto
• Jay
• Belschaft
• Viet

(fun fact, I’d be between Belschaft and Viet if I hadn’t dropped off due to Reliant+NS stuff last year…)

The Dean is a cute idea thatI don’t mind, though I’m kinda bothered by Kris being the one to propose it and also the one to be the prospective first dean.

[BlockBuster2K43]

@Roavin

though I’m kinda bothered by Kris being the one to propose it and also the one to be the prospective first dean.

It is an interesting coincidence, isn’t it.

[Roavin]

Alright, I took a closer look at the Voting Act, and really, in comparison with extant law, we have to look at the combination of Voting Act and Assembly Act.

In total, I like it. Ironically, despite splitting Legislator into two separate things (Voter and Legislator), it makes it simpler. I’m, in a way, the father of LegComm, but I never liked it, because it was meant to compromise on a few things that are nearly impossible to compromise on. I’m actually pleased to see it broken up, with Legislator management back in the Chair but the actual security checks only with SecC where they, strictly, belong.

There are a few things that are problematic and, imho, need to change, which I’ll address in the point-by-point below, but overall, once again, I like it.

That all being said, let me propose a somewhat radical idea that makes things even simpler. What if we got rid of Legislators altogether? By that I mean anybody that is a registered voter is automatically a legislator, no extra effort needed, and removals are only done as part of Voter removals once every forum election. As it is, almost everything TSP does is out in the open anyway where any TSP member can participate, registered or not, so it seems to me like the security implications are basically none (wrt LegLounge and Private Halls), and it massively reduces bureaucracy for counting votes and whatnot.

Just an idea.

Anyway, some specifics:

@KrisKringle

(3) Members may not appeal to the High Court a failed security check, but they may apply again if their circumstances have changed. Voters may appeal to the High Court a removal on the grounds that proper procedure was not followed or that there was no rational basis for the removal.

This … is problematic. I see where you’re coming from in one sense, as parts of a security check may sometimes involve things beyond the mere confines of a game being played by anonymous players, but that doesn’t mean we can give SecC a pass for parts of a security check that may very well be within the confines of the game. SecC can mess up, or be corrupt, or whatever (though hopefully it isn’t), and there must be an avenue to address that.

Apart from that, I generally believe that our Court should be able to review anything within its jurisdiction, and this is no exception.

@KrisKringle

(3) Voters may not appeal to the High Court a declined petition, but they may apply again if their circumstances have changed. Legislators may appeal to the High Court a removal on the grounds that proper procedure was not followed or that there was no rational basis for the removal.

See above, but here even more so because in this case, there isn’t even the PII justification like the previous one has. This has to go, in my humble opinion.

@KrisKringle

The Council may appoint no more than four voters with the approval of the Assembly to act in their name for such purposes, but the Council retains final authority on all decisions.

I suppose this means there could be a LegComm but ideally, there wouldn’t be and it’d just be SecC doing it. At the same time, I do think CRS could use a few fresh faces.

[KrisKringle]

I finally have some time to catch up on comments. Please note that I agree in principle about the idea to move forward Chair elections instead of having the Dean take their place, but I am still trying to figure out a language that works well, based on what ProfessorHenn proposed, and use that also for the Prime Minister.

@ProfessorHenn

I’m assuming you meant to drop the “[add]is” from this.

@Roavin

Oh, surely focus on just removal from office, for a number of reasons, not the least of which that it would be unconstitutional under extant law as well as KWB (2.1.e).

The provision on recalls has been adjusted to reflect both comments.

@ProfessorHenn

What about including “per round of voting” following “a period of three days”, since it doesn’t define the length of the rounds in the section concerning the Delegate election.

This has been incorporated.

@ProfessorHenn

Recommend changing to “requirement in cases where urgency is required”.

This has been incorporated.

@ProfessorHenn

There’s no Accountability Act attached, unless this is deliberate.

This is a leftover from when the Sunshine Act had other provisions that I eventually figured were unnecessary. I will adjust this to refer to the Sunshine Act.

@Roavin

Sure! Here’s my reasoning: At any one time, the biggest imminent threat to the region is an autocoup by the Delegate, and it’s the security institution (CRS, CSS, SecC, whatever) that is responsible for bolstering defenses and monitoring the situation.

I think there is merit in this argument. I would say however that, as you point out, the Delegate is a non-political figure and, in addition, the security institution does have the power to suspend its members, so there would be mitigating options in the event of a security breach. I’m fine either way, but I do think the situation is less urgent than if we had an executive Delegate.

@Roavin

I mean … I like CRS. I know you don’t. Maybe Regional Guard?

I know it’s a bit of a running joke that I don’t like the current name, but I do genuinely think that it would be nice to have a different name. I like Regional Guard, though I wonder how we’d refer to its members?

@Roavin

I think in the past I would be more critical in this, but given that we’re a solidly Defender GCR and I doubt a PM would dare to do something like not let the SPSF deploy at will in Libcord between ordered missions. Though if the latter were to happen, I’ll be the first to yell for a recall + law change

I think it’s important to point that nothing in this draft says that there cannot be generals. If the Prime Minister thinks that there should be generals then nothing says they can’t appoint them or issue an executive order to set up that structure.

@Roavin

The Dean is a cute idea thatI don’t mind, though I’m kinda bothered by Kris being the one to propose it and also the one to be the prospective first dean.

@BlockBuster2K43

It is an interesting coincidence, isn’t it.

It is an interesting coincidence, but nothing more. The provision that the Dean would preside over the election of the Chair came as a result of a discussion I had with Henn about adding a certain element of ceremony to the Assembly (hence the separate idea of sessions) and me remembering that in the UK the Father of the House presides over the election of the Speaker, which to me seemed like a nice way to add ceremony and also emphasise the institutional memory of the Assembly.

If there is any doubt that I did not in fact want to reserve that position for myself, you need only see that the draft of the Assembly Act, as originally written, includes in the definition of the Dean a provision that allows the holder to opt out if they declare that they are unwilling to discharge their duties.

@Roavin

That all being said, let me propose a somewhat radical idea that makes things even simpler. What if we got rid of Legislators altogether? By that I mean anybody that is a registered voter is automatically a legislator, no extra effort needed, and removals are only done as part of Voter removals once every forum election. As it is, almost everything TSP does is out in the open anyway where any TSP member can participate, registered or not, so it seems to me like the security implications are basically none (wrt LegLounge and Private Halls), and it massively reduces bureaucracy for counting votes and whatnot.

This is not a inherently a bad idea, but at the same time I’m not sure if I agree. Each ministry manages its membership and can decide to remove members who are inactive, so surely the Assembly should have the same power to self-regular its membership? I also think that having the Assembly as an additional option for registration could be useful in terms of promotion, if we did it the right way.

I do think you have a point about reducing bureaucracy and we should probably have a discussion about that. I just don’t think the way to go is to have an Assembly where the only requirement is to cast a vote every 3 months and do absolutely nothing else, and still get to vote on important bills if they so choose.

@Roavin

Apart from that, I generally believe that our Court should be able to review anything within its jurisdiction, and this is no exception.

@Roavin

See above, but here even more so because in this case, there isn’t even the PII justification like the previous one has. This has to go, in my humble opinion.

Yes, thank you. I was incorporating preferences that had been expressed in earlier debates but I wholeheartedly agree that the Court as a matter of both law and principle should be able to review anything within its jurisdiction, though perhaps a discussion could be had about the scope of that review.

[ProfessorHenn]

@KrisKringle

though I wonder how we’d refer to its members?

Easy. Guardians of the Galaxy. Although I worry our western sister might try to sue.

[HumanSanity]

@KrisKringle

4. The Delegate

As I said in response to the previous Kris/Henn omnibus, I would like a line included which defines the Delegate as voting and approving in accordance with the direction of the Prime Minister.

@KrisKringle

6. The Executive

Extremely small, but there’s a numbering error starting here. It should be “5”.

@KrisKringle

3. Authority

(1) The Security Council conducts security checks, monitors the qualifications of voters, and removes voters pursuant to Article 2, Section 2. The Council may appoint no more than four voters with the approval of the Assembly to act in their name for such purposes, but the Council retains final authority on all decisions.

My concerns that I expressed on the Henn/Kris omnibus still apply about giving the authority for voter registration processing to the Security Council. They would be slightly mitigated if greater accountability measures for the Security Council were to be implemented (as discussed below). I’ll answer the responses given in that thread:

@KrisKringle

The point of having the Security Council be ultimately responsible is not to give them the day-to-day duties, but to:

1. Ensure that they can step in in case someone who could endanger the region is trying to join and is somehow at risk of being admitted.

The current Legislator Committee Act includes a provision that allows the CRS to reject an applicant who is a threat to regional security. We could include a similar provision.

@KrisKringle

Ensure that there is a temporary fallback in case this LegComm successor is unexpectedly busy and applications are piling up.

I find this highly unlikely given structural activity levels on the CRS.

@KrisKringle

(4) Elections for Delegate begin on the first of every February and August, or no more than seven days after a vacancy wherein no less than half the term remains, with a first round conducted under approval vote with two winners

I realize we have had this debate many times, but I personally would prefer to move to instant runoff voting for all positions/elections, and that would include this. The top two candidates can still be identified before moving to the on-site voting round.

@KrisKringle

2. Regional Military

(1) The Prime Minister is the commander-in-chief of the Special Forces of the South Pacific and exercises civilian command and control over it.

I would prefer in final reconciliation that we note the preference of GC members for a General Corps-led military rather than a Prime Minister-led military in the two competing versions of the Defense Act that were voted on.

@KrisKringle

2. Role of the Security Council

I would like to propose two additional clauses to this article of the Regional Security Act:

(4) The Council will select from among its members a Chair who will be primarily responsible for overseeing the business of the Council, communicating with other branches of government and the public, and overseeing any programs to promote endorsements for officials trusted to maintain higher endorsements. The Assembly will be notified upon the election of a new Chair. The current Delegate may not serve as Chair.

(5) On July 1, the presiding officer of the Assembly shall initiate a retention vote for each member of the Council. If the Assembly does not vote in favor of retention of a Councillor by a simple majority, they will be removed from the Security Council.

The first clause is important because it establishes accountability for who on the Council has the authority to speak for the Council and is responsible for overseeing one of the core functions of the Council (endorsement promotion) which has recently been neglected. Establishing an accountable official for these core functions will help ensure they are accomplished.

The second clause is important for further accountability. If members of the Council have lost the confidence of a majority of the region, then they aren’t reliable and cannot be trusted to maintain regional security. Meeting this incredibly low threshold should not be difficult for any active and engaged members of the Council.

@KrisKringle

Criticise the Coalition or its allies.

I don’t think we should prohibit communications which criticize allies of the Coalition as there are times where the government is consciously issuing statements against actions by an ally (our spat with TNP over quorum raiding comes to mind)

@KrisKringle

(4) Moderators may order the ejection or ban of any nation as fair and proportional penalty for violating moderation rules, but the assent of the Security Council is required for the ejection or ban of any nation that is not a low influence nation.

I disagree with the portion of this clause requiring Security Council approval to ban a nation that is not a low influence nation. If a nation is subject to a moderation (OOC) ban, the Security Council (IC) has no role in determining that ban’s ability to be executed.

@KrisKringle

4. The Dean of the Assembly

I agree with previously expressed concerns about the role of the Dean of the Assembly. The position seems unaccountable, unnecessary, and like its responsibilities can be carried out by other officials.

[BlockBuster2K43]

I’m unsure whether this has already been suggested, but potentially the existing office of the Clerk of the Assembly could be given further powers and functions that allow for the position to administer the Assembly, as acting Presiding Officer during elections for Chair and other Assembly officers. Maybe the Clerk could be assigned other responsibilities too by the incumbent Chair, if they were willing that is.

The Clerk could potentially be elected by the Assembly or appointed by the Chair at the start of a person’s tenure all the way until they leave office? This is just a thought after all.

Thanks!

[maluhia]

@BlockBuster2K43

and fuctions that allow for the position to administer the Assembly, as acting Presiding Officer during elections for Chair

I haven’t been as active in the Great Council recently as I would liked to have been, however, I do believe that ProfessorHenn’s amendment to the Charter eliminated regular Chair elections. Now of course, in the case of a resignation, a loss of status, or any other thing that would remove the Chair from office, an election would occur.

Usually, in real life, I actually do support a larger government system but then again we’re in a online political simulator. I know that the Chair can appoint as many deputies as they please, but I don’t think that the Clerk of the Assembly is needed. If I remember correctly, I was told that the Clerk was originally established under Cryo as an administrator and publisher of some Assembly journal which to my knowledge is now defunct.

So why do we even need this special position called a “clerk” after all? Why should it be given these special powers ever since when it’s been more of a name and less than an actual political office?

[BlockBuster2K43]

It was just a simple suggestion, I like to seem my statement as a way of gathering some opinions from other Great Council members. Tbh, you are correct in saying that the current roles of the Clerk as previously outlined and stated, are now defunct.

[maluhia]

I see that it was a suggestion. I’d like to hear @Jebediah’s thoughts about this are because, well, they are the actual Clerk of the Assembly or whatever it is really.

[KrisKringle]

I will be away from home until the next weekend, so my ability to respond to posts will be limited until then. Please know that I am not ignoring anyone’s questions or comments.

[Jebediah]

That title was only really a name for the person who managed the Journal. It doesn’t really exist any more, nor would it need to exist any more unless we need another position for which the title would make sense.

[BlockBuster2K43]

They are, in essence, a de facto Deputy Chair.

[maluhia]

Sorry for the delayed response.

Would you support BlockBuster’s suggestion of giving the Clerk special powers? Or keep it as a “de facto” Deputy Chair? For me, I don’t really see the need for more than one deputy but then again I’m not the Chair and that is their respective decision.