I think the PM, was posted first.
1 Like
I shouldnāt even have to make that analogy though, thatās the stupid part. Itās crazy that people are arguing that itās too much to expect our voters to actually read something, or do that bare minimum of looking at a picture, before voting.
If I remember correctly, you said that you cast an invalid ballot because of this. I did once too. Now that youāve done it, do you think the same thing would happen again?
I shouldnāt have to make the analogy though. People should just read the instructions 
Also, show some respect for your region, thatās the culture youāre insulting!
It is indeed partially their fault, but the system is also at fault for not making itself clearer when there are a few simple methods
That is an excellent point, we donāt know that. If it is the case that people arenāt reading the instructions at all it is their fault. There are a few thing we can do to prevent this though, such as a short sentence of how to vote at the top of the ballot template, but itās wrong to simply dismiss things that could be helpful just because we arenāt the ones at fault.
2 Likes
Maybe it would be good to put a short little tldr at the top stating the voting type, but I still find it strange to say thereās āsimpler methodsā than reading and looking at pictures
Wait, there is one
I am not insulting any culture and I am not insulting this region!!! Since Day one, I got here, I have shown the at most respect for this region. I love TSP! I love politics and debating too. Thatās why I joined to become a legislator.
Also, your being quite rude about this, as this came to me in a very rude tone.
I also cast an invalid ballot this election too, because of this issue! Of course, since I know, it wonāt happen again. But it will happen to other people, and thatās why the ballot should be unified for every forum based election, because it will happen to other people.
Iām a bit confused by this line of argument. It seems quite clear at this point that invalid votes will continue to be cast under the system we are using, regardless of whose fault that is. We have had this same problemāand the same ensuing discussionāfor several Delegate elections in a row now, yet nothing has changed. So if we retain the system we have, many future voters will almost certainly cast invalid ballots. Your argument against changing that system appears to be that those voters deserve what they get and need to be taught a lesson. I must admit that I find that very unpersuasive.
3 Likes
I was joking 
Yes, itās very annoying to me that people would rather change the entire system, which I think works beautifully, then expect people charged with the privilege and responsibility of voting to read the instructions on how to vote.
Same exact thing happened to me, and now I work to make sure I donāt make the same mistake again. I donāt see indulgence as the answer to the problem though.
Iām stunned that you believe a system that regularly has a failure rate of 20% or more is one that works beautifully.
4 Likes
I agree with @Welly, It is very unpersuasive,
If we do keep the same system, which regularly has a failure system of 20%, itās not perfect and works beautifully, itās kind of the whole opposite of that, that tells that it needs to be changed so we donāt get any failure of 20%, or this whole issue at all!
If we put āPlease rank candidates you approve of.ā and āMark all candidates you approve of with an X. Do not approve RON if you approve a candidate.ā at the top of the appropriate ballot templates people will be more likely to see them and would likely solve a lot of the problem
2 Likes
Iāve had to repeat the same argument about reading over and over again, so let me say something else.
If people arenāt willing to look at the first (second if youāre being picky) sentence of the voting topic, why should we, and I apologize for the somewhat rude phrasing here, bring down the system to meet them in the middle? Itās not like the entire region is voting, people have to specifically apply to become a citizen, thus becoming responsible for voting in our elections? They should know what theyāre getting into. Thereās also the matter of almost 2/3 of the citizens eligible to vote failing to do so, but I think that deserves its own topic.
Now, let me be absolutely clear. I have nothing against people who mess up once, or maybe even every now and again. Just take it as a learning experience. When I see proposals like this, I donāt believe itās to help them. A change like that would disproportionately benefit anyone who has constantly and consistently cast an invalid ballot and has done nothing to learn from it, since weāve seen it happen more with the Delegate vote than Prime Minister vote.
On that topic, I know that we always choose IRV because itās objectively the better system (although something like approval voting or first pass the post could theoretically still work here). Out of curiosity, if we conformed the vote the other way (that being changing the PM vote to match the Delegate vote), do you think that would still solve the problem of invalid ballots?
Iām sorry, Iād agree with you, but at this point I just donāt believe that would solve the problem. If people arenāt going to read the first sentence of the voting topic (Iām hoping you saw my previous post with the pictures), whatās to say theyād read the first sentence of the ballot?
Iām stupid, itās first past the post lmao
I find this position needlessly ruthless and cynical. Especially so in the context of an online game where folks are meant to be having fun and enjoying a welcoming community, not being shamed for failing to adequately learn from voting errors. Your opposition to a change that would reduce the voting error rate because it would ādisproportionately benefitā those who have āconstantly and consistently cast an invalid ballot and has done nothing to learn from itā is essentially an argument that those people deserve their disenfranchisement. I cannot accept it.
I would just requote Tsuās response to this argument the last time it came up, which I found both heartfelt and eminently persuasive.
3 Likes
It shouldnāt just be a learning experience, if people consistently cast an invalid ballot then the system should be changed, itās to help benefit everyone in the end, even though the people who have been here for years, already know the this system, and to help the people that consistently cast an invalid ballot, also IRV is a better system in my opinion, and people in my opinion more better understand the IRV system,
I am not sure, I think in my opinion it would make it worse because like said just right above, people in my opinion better understand the IRV, then approval. So I think it will just make things worse.
Thereās a difference between disenfranchisement and asking them to read, or at least take more responsibility with their vote. Why is asking them to do that ruthless and cynical? How is against the spirit of TSP to ask our voters to do their due diligence? I hope, and quite frankly believe, that every single one of our voters at least looked into the candidates first, rather than just blindly voting. They tripped over the finish line, and now know for the next time.
For those who have been casting invalid ballots again and again and again, thereās a problem that needs to be fixed, we can all agree on that. Perhaps I was too harsh in my previous posts, I tend to get heated on this topic. But changing the entire system is, in my belief, not the right call at all. Why donāt we just make a voter information campaign? Iād wager that thereās nothing that says we can only inform citizens on how to vote during the vote. Our elected Prime minister, @lordnwahs is going to have Ministers of Integration and Engagement after all, Iām sure they could whip up something good for that.
Iāll also ask again, do you believe, or have an opinion on whether switching the entire voting system to approval voting would still fix the problem?
I was most certainly wrong before, and acting off annoyance more than clear thought. If people consistently cast an invalid ballot, then we should do more to help them. Thatās why we have those guides there. If youāre unfamiliar with the voting system, you can make use of them to help guide you through the process. I donāt see why changing the voting system is a better option than a.) figuring out how to get people to read those guides or b.) explaining how it works before the election, either through a guide they get when theyāre excepted as a citizen, or something like an infographic or telegram.
I mean, sure, although I personally think approval voting is more self-explanatory than instant-runoff voting, but theyāre both fairly clear. Iād also consider IRV more complicated than approval voting, thatās part of why people like it so much.